Thus says the Lord: "Stand by the roads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'" --Jeremiah 6:16

 

10 October, 2007   comments: (0) Church History   Mailbag: Reformer and Pilgrim Misunderstandings I was emailed recently by a very nice lady regarding a variety of questions related to the Reformers, the Mayflower Pilgrims, and scripture relating to predestination (always a favorite topic with emailers), and the hope for children not born into Christian families. Wow! That's quite a bit of ground to cover, but I thought since I'm answering her email, I'll share with you my responses. This conversation has been going back and forth for a few days and I'm letting you in on the middle of it. On the topic of election and predestination I mentioned to Kathy that the belief in these things was predominant by the Reformers, Puritans, and believers right up through the mid-1800's. Kathy had rightly noticed that the scriptures are often not viewed the same today, by a majority of believers. She attends a Lutheran church, and had this to say in response: "it turns out that the Reformers who were Calvinists do not include Dr. Luther. My own (Lutheran) Pastor informed me that Luther did not believe in predestination, and in fact debated Calvin. So it would be appreciated if all the Calvinists seen in the blogosphere would stick to the facts, and not include statements that Luther was a Calvinist. If we are going to be dealing with the truth, let truth be stated." I don't believe that I said Martin Luther was a Calvinist, but I did say that predestination and election were the belief of each of the Reformers. These beliefs were by no means a Calvin thing; in fact he trailed behind Martin Luther by about 20 years, and so some consider him to be a second generation Reformer. RC Sproul in his book Chosen By God mentions that John Calvin did not say anything that Luther and Augustine had not said before him. Sproul goes on to say that Luther spoke about Predestination more than John Calvin did. In fact, Luther debated this topic with the Roman Catholic scholar Erasmus, and you can read all of what Luther said in the book Bondage of The Will. Here's an excerpt: "For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and foreordains all things; that He cannot be deceived or obstructed in His foreknowledge and predestination; and that nothing happens but at His will (which reason itself is compelled to grant); then, on reason's own testimony, there can be no 'free-will' in man, or angel, or in any creature." [Read Luther for yourself: P1, P2, P3] So Kathy, I don't know what to say about your pastor, but he's really off on his church history. You will even find election and predestination in the Book of Concord which contains the original beliefs of the Lutheran church. Ulrich Zwingli was the other Reformer of this time period and he too shared this same belief. The debate between these men was not over predestination, but over sacraments (baptism and communion). Kathy brought up another topic that relates somewhat: "some time ago I received a "prayer request" to pray for an elderly lady, who had been told that since she was not born into a Christian family, she was not "Elect", could not be saved, and could never go to heaven, no matter how much she wanted to. Her request, in her own words of agony, tore me up. It was impossible to get to her, to reassure her, although I offered. How many other people have been prevented from the Kingdom by similar statements? What are Calvinists doing to make sure that this sort of thing doesn't happen?" Yikes! I have never heard any Calvinist, or anyone who believes in election and predestination say something like that. I know that there have been some erroneous schools of thought related to infant baptism through the years, but if you read the historic Confessions and Creeds you'll see that even those Calvinists who believe in infant baptism (which I don't) do not believe that it leads to salvation. The thought that you can't be elect unless you are born into a Christian family is really out in left field. Think about that for a moment, that would mean that nobody could have been saved during the Reformation, because the vast majority were all first generation believers at that point. They were coming out of the Roman Catholic system of works righteousness. Kathy, I hope you will continue to reassure your elderly friend to put her trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of her sins. The Lord promises to save all who do. Lastly, Kathy has this to say about the Pilgrims: "if the Mayflower Pilgrims were really Calvinists, they did not do a very good job of "Contending for the faith, once delivered to the saints", down through their generations. There exists no Pilgrim Church denomination, and my husband's family (both sides), who descend from Mayflower Pilgrims, are extremely hateful towards us, who are Bible-believing Christians. His brother is a raving Atheist, who mocks prayer, God, etc. I thinks it's safe to say that we are truly 'first generation" Christians in this family, and have endured the heat, rejection, and scorn accorded to us by them. President Bush also descends from John Howland, and look at his belief that "All people believe in the same God" (WorldNetDaily, Oct.7,'07)" I don't think there ever was a "Pilgrim Church" denomination, but the Pilgrims were Puritan separatists that made a huge and lasting impact on our country. They landed in America with their Geneva Bibles, and in the decades that followed, their colonies adopted the Westminster Confession of Faith (which is still in use today by Presbyterians), the New England Primer for their children - which contained the Westminster Shorter Catechism that even my church uses to train children today. Also Isaac Watts book of hymns and Foxes Book of Martyrs. These things are a part of a Calvinist tradition that's still going today in Reformed Baptist churches like mine, as well as Presbyterian churches. No doubt that there are bad apples in every bunch though Kathy, so I don't doubt that you had some bad experiences with some folks who descended from the Pilgrims. I also agree with you on the disturbing remarks by George Bush. So the bottom line is, the Reformers (including Luther), Puritans, Pilgrims, and Calvinists are not perfect, but they most certainly were proponents of unconditional election and predestination. Their impact on our country in terms of both beliefs and government also can not be denied. Be sure to also read my post on the first thanksgiving, as I think it will help you to get to know the Pilgrims a little better. Posted by: Jim B.   Link: http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.799   Be the first to post a comment about this article        Home  |   About  |  Videos   |  Calvinism