Truth is ancient; it's grey hairs may make it venerable;
it comes from Him who is the ancient of days. --Thomas Watson

 

13 October, 2005   comments: (0) Today's Pragmatism   Don't Judge Us: "The Ends Justify The Means" Parents, this may not be the best post for children to read. I find myself embarrassed over the actions of one midwest mega-church that's really pushing the envelope for what's acceptable in church. Here are some audio clips of the irreverent and inappropriate language that comes forth from this "pulpit". Meanwhile, in the youth group we have weekly rock concerts that get defined as "worship". One of their teens says she likes going to this youth group instead of with her parents - because you can "do what you want to do, dance around or whatever". I was in a discussion on another blog this week, responding to concerns about this particular seeker-sensitive church, which boasts several thousand members in attendance weekly. One of the leaders of the church saw my comments and emailed me with his objections. I'll refer to him in the email transcript below as "Jason", and the entirety of his message is in the color red. The entirety of my email-reply back to Jason is in this color. The text formatting (bold and italics) were added by me. What follows is a glimpse into the worldly and man-centered mindset of the Church Growth Movement. I've included some snapshots and audio bites from the online videos being offered on the website of Jason's church. Jason: Let me address some of the points that you made in your email, in an effort to see if we can reason together on this. I help lead worship at [our Church] high-school ministry, [youth group]. I'm not the drummer, nor the one who picks the songs or topics we cover each week - ... Why did you feel it important to make that disclaimer (about not being the drummer, etc.)? Perhaps you agree that these things are "over the top", and you want to distance yourself from them? ...but I am one of the 30 leaders we have volunteer each week to help do the ministry that goes on at [our youth group]. The reason we appear to worship like rock stars and have fun in doing so, is because we believe we should do that. I understand that you (and others) feel that you should do it. I'm questioning on what basis you make that determination. Can you show me in the bible where you get the precedent for 'fun' in terms of how it drives your worship or ministry efforts? We should perform a concert of worship to the one and only Audience member - our Lord and Savior. Does God consider any method and music to be valid worship, the way you see it? Let's take some examples: Suppose we use some of the songs of Marilyn Manson, and we change the lyrics to words that speak favorably of God. Is that valid worship? Or what if we take the Rolling Stones' song with the Lyrics "Lets spend the night together", and change it to "Lets spend eternity together" and then sing this revised version of the song for worship in church. Valid? How about if we make a new "Christian song" with lyrics that mention God, but the music sounds exactly like secular "acid rock" music? Where do you draw the line Jason? Kids may say they get to do what they want, but I can honestly tell you that if you came to [our youth group], you'd see kids wanting to pay attention, worship how they feel most comfortable, ... When you say "worship how they feel most comfortable", do you see that you are making worship man-centered? In doing so, you admit that the needs of the worshiper are prioritized above the one being worshiped. ... [the kids] keep coming back each and every week. They do all of this because we are meeting them where they are at, and speaking a language they can understand. It just so happens it's in the language of our culture, along with up front, no bologna honesty - about who we are and how God made us as a generation of young people. The "language" you refer to is that of the World and the Flesh. Are they coming back every week because "it feels good", or are they coming back for spiritual reasons? Perhaps a good way to test this, would be to get rid of the "rock concert" for a month or two, and see if they still come. I'm sure that the ones who are there for spiritual reasons will still be there after the carnal stimulation is gone for a while. How many do you think your group would lose, if you tried such an experiment? Also, do you see any of these scriptures as contrary to a strategy of catering to "the language" that you refer to: Romans 12:2 tells us "do not be conformed to this world". James 4:4 says: "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God". Colossians 2:8 tells us: "See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ". You don't hear me complaining about how dull your website is or how irrelevant it comes off to someone who is just taking steps to gain a relationship with Christ, do you? Is "relevance to seekers" the acid test for everything Jason? Must all church programs, ministries, and spiritual endeavors meet this criteria that you propose? In the end - you do ministry your way and we'll keep doing high-school ministry our way. If we both win souls for Christ and teach those we reach how to fight in the war for the rest of humanity's salvation, then we both are getting the Lord's work done. But your blasting us without truly knowing who we are and how effective we have been in the community we live in, is only slander. Jason, how many more "rock concerts" do I need to see before you would feel I'm in a position to make a determination about your ministry? How many more sexual remarks do I need to hear your pastor make from "the pulpit"? How many sermons do I need to see from your church, that springboard off of sleazy TV shows like Desperate Housewives? I don't understand how you can feel there is a lack of information available, for making such a determination. Or are you saying that because of the "results", your church should be excused from judgment on any questionable conduct that leads up to producing those results? Are "results" all that matters Jason? Can we behave as Christians any way we want, just as long as we have "results"? And are "numbers" (of people) always the indicator of God's blessing? Before you answer Jason, remember that the Mormon church is huge. That's right, I said it. You weaken the work of the ministry we do by judging us without understanding why we do things the way we do them. Again, unless your website misrepresents what's going on at your church, I don't see how you can say that there is a lack of information about your ministry. If I showed you a video of my church, in which my pastor mentioned (as arbitrary [hypothetical] examples) how stealing or adultery is "ok", would you feel that you need to sit in our church for many more months before you could make a judgment? What if I told you that you are wrong to judge my pastor by one sermon like that, and that you should look at the "results" that our church is producing? No doubt you would think that this reasoning is ridiculous, as it would be. You would feel that "perceived results" do not excuse the poor morals that were a part of the production of the results. Only God can judge us and the thousands of [our church] members that have come to know Christ and that have benefited greatly from the ministry we do, on so many levels. Is that biblically correct Jason? Does the bible really indicate that Christians should not judge other Christians? Consider these passages for example: 1 Timothy 5:20 = As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. 2 Timothy 3:16 = All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 2 Timothy 4:2b = reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. Think about what you say and do before preaching from your soap box next time. Well, I have Jason. I considered my thoughts very carefully in the years that I was a part of a seeker-sensitive church similar to yours, and I've thought a lot about it in the years since then as well. If I didn't feel that these things were dangerous to people's souls, I would not speak out about it. Thank you for your email, and I hope you will carefully consider what I have said, as I have with your words. --Jim Some final notes: I understand that the sound bites that I've provided above have been pulled from their original context. This is essentially what was done in the original source videos however, which were a series of clips with no context either. Also, one has to question what context is really needed in order to evaluate the remarks of a pastor hovering over a sports-car on the stage, saying the words "this is God ordained sex". One famous leader of the Church Growth Movement teaches "there is no such thing as Christian music, there's only Christian lyrics". It would seem from the music clip above, which was featured on this church's website, that not even Christian lyrics are always necessary. I listened to it several times and was unable to recognize any mention of "God" or "Jesus", etc. Do they consider this worship? I dont know. I can not distinguish it from secular rock music, in any way shape or form. My intention in this post is to highlight a common-thread of pragmatism, within the Church Growth Movement, rather than to draw focus to this one particular church. Because of this, I've taken reasonable steps to conceal the identity of the specific church mentioned above (as well as Jason's identity). 10/15/05 UPDATE: Below you will find a number of comments left by folks who agree with the methods used by this church. Unfortunately, many of them missed the point of this article. The article (and it's title) speaks of the erroneous thinking that "The Ends Justify The Means". To further demonstrate this, I've marked the comments below with a "flashing light" that attempt to justify a method by citing it's end result. The problem with this reasoning is clear. For example, the (very large) Mormon church (/cult) might similarly defend itself from doctrinal scrutiny by citing "changed lives" and "large congregations" and "good works". Read more in: "But Does It Work? - Truth Vs. Technique" Posted by: Jim B.   Link: http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.79   Be the first to post a comment about this article        Home  |   About  |  Videos   |  Calvinism