Truth is ancient; it's grey hairs may make it venerable;
it comes from Him who is the ancient of days. --Thomas Watson

 

11 September, 2007   comments: (0) Anti-Calvinism   "Let Me Give You The True Meaning of Predestination" In this post, we will discuss the statements made by an Old Truth commenter named Tae who believes there is a biblical problem with what he calls "Calvin's view of salvation". He promises to give us "the right view" of predestination instead, and as he calls it elsewhere "the true meaning". Along the way he brings up many of the same prooftexts that we've answered here many times including 2 Peter 3:9. I'll post his remarks and see if a productive two-way discussion can be had. That's going to require him to answer some questions too. Here's what he had to say: Note that Tae has joined us on Old Truth in the past in the comments on this thread and this one. Both times he pasted-in the same form letter into his comments. Understanding of Predestination (1) Many Christians believe the Calvin's view about salvation which states that God, by His own will, predestinated some to be saved and some not to be saved before the creation of the world. Therefore, they also believe that if God did not elect you, you can't be saved even if you eagerly want to be saved. Is this the view of the Bible regarding our salvation? Is there any single verse in the Bible which supports the Calvin's view about salvation? Not at all! Of course, there are many verses regarding predestination. We should understand those verses correctly. Otherwise, we may end up with wrong understanding about the predestination. Before I present the right explanation about predestination, I would like you to think the following points first. 1. If God predestinated some to be saved and some not to be saved (as explained by John Calvin), then, why God judges those who are not saved by God's own will? Does it mean God judges His decision? 2. If God predestinated some to be saved and some not to be saved, what is the point of God's word, "God our Savior who wants all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:5, NIV)? Does God still want all men to be saved even if He already predetermined some not to be saved? 3. How about the word that Jesus said? "yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:40, NIV). Why did Jesus not say "God refused you to come" instead of "you refuse to come"? 4. If we assume both doctrines, which are contradictory each other, are correct, it may mean that the word of God is not truth. Therefore, either the "predestination' doctrine (explained by Calvin) or "free will" doctrine regarding salvation must be wrong. Let's consider the true meaning of the true meaning of predestination regarding salvation. First of all, the main subject of God's predestination is Jesus Christ, not believers. "No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began." (1 Cor. 2:7, NIV). In this verse we see the expression "God destined". God destined the hidden wisdom, which is Jesus Christ and His death on the cross for our sins. This means God predestinated Jesus Christ to be died on the cross for our sins before the world began. "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began." (Tit 1:2, KJV). To whom did God promise the eternal life? Of course, God promised the eternal life to those who believe in Jesus Christ. Therefore, we can say that God predestined Jesus Christ before the world began, which means that God predestined Him to die on the cross for our sins and also predestined everyone who believes in him to be saved. Isn't it clear that the subject of God's predestination is Jesus Christ? -- will be continued Understanding of Predestination (2) The Bible also says that God predestinated us in several places (Eph 1:4-5, 11, 3:11, 2 Thes. 2:13, etc). We have to understand predestination of believers based on the predestination of Jesus Christ. "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." (Eph. 1:4-5, NIV). In these verses, we see the expression "he predestined us". This expression says that God predestinated us to be saved. But we have to notice the expressions such as "in him [Jesus Christ]" and "through Jesus Christ". This means that as long as we are in Jesus Christ we also are predestinated through Jesus Christ. How do you understand that we died on the cross with Jesus Christ when we believed (Rom.6:6, Gal. 2:20). Were we there when Jesus Christ died on the cross about 2000 years? No, we were not even born in this world when the Christ died on the cross! Then, what does that mean? God considers us died with the Christ when we believed. We may understand God's predestination in the similar way. When we believe in Jesus Christ, we are predestined to be saved and to have eternal life, because Jesus Christ was predestinated to be our Savior and God predestinated us to have eternal life when we believe. This means that our salvation began through the work of Jesus Christ whom God predestinated before the creation of the world and accomplished through our belief in Jesus Christ. Then, how about the verse in Acts 13:48? "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48, NIV). Who were appointed for eternal life? God appointed everyone who believed. One interesting expression for the same verse can be found in "the New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament" -Tyndale and it expressed as, "As many as believed had been appointed to eternal life". This expression simply says that those who believed in Jesus Christ had been appointed to eternal life. How about the following verse? "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44, NIV). This expression looks like we can not believe unless God draws us. This does not mean that God predestinated us to be saved and therefore, God draws us. But we have to notice how God draws us in the next verse ---will be continued. Understanding of Predestination (3) "It is written in the Prophets; "They will all be taught by God." Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." (John 6:45, NIV). God draws us through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The expression, "Everyone who listens to Father" is same as "Everyone who listens to the Gospel of Jesus Christ". God always draws people through the word of God and whoever listens to the Gospel and believes in Jesus will be saved. If we understand the predestination in this way, we know that the "free will" and 'predestination' doctrines are not contradictory each other, but support each other. "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Rom. 10:13, NIV). "For God so loved the world that gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16, KJV). These verses apparently support "free will" doctrine regarding salvation. However, whoever believes in him also is predestined to have eternal life because God predestined everyone who believes in Jesus Christ to have eternal life before the creation of the world. Let me give you an example to understand the predestination doctrine better. Let's say that a twenty year old young man killed someone and he sentenced to death by court. Then we can say that he was predestined to die before 300 years ago by the law. How can we say that? When the country passed the law about death sentence of killer, the law predestinated that anyone who killed someone would die. After 300 years later the young man died by the predestination of the law. This does not mean that the law caused the young man to kill someone. This also means that the law does not predestinate anyone to die as long as he does not commit killing. Does anyone cause the young man to kill someone? No. the young man killed someone by his own will. Since he willed to kill someone, he predestinated to die 300 years ago. Free will and predestination do not against each other and are not contradictory each other at all as many scholars think. The word of God is truth. "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth." (John 17:17). The word of God can not be contradictory. Why are we trying to keep someone's misunderstanding of the Bible verses. Even though there may be many verses which look like support the Calvin's explanation, we should understand them based on the predestination of Jesus Christ by God. Well, there's a lot of questions there. As is my tradition here on Old Truth, I like to answer one or two and then stop to have the questioner answer one or two that I give. That way it's not just one side going under the white light the whole time. So let me ask Tae if he has one or two scriptures that he would like me to answer first. Once Tae gives me a scripture to start with, I will begin, and likewise I encourage anyone else who wants to join-in to feel free to do so. Tae - you are obviously pasting all of that in from some online source(s). Before we go any further, please provide for us the link to that source(s) and give credits to it's author(s). Thank you. Posted by: Jim B.   Link: http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.774   Be the first to post a comment about this article        Home  |   About  |  Videos   |  Calvinism