Thus says the Lord: "Stand by the roads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'" --Jeremiah 6:16

 

4 June, 2007   comments: (0) Postmodern CRN.INFO   Chris Lyons: "Predestinarians Produce Bad Fruit" In this post I'll answer the claim of Postmodern blogger Chris Lyons, who declared "it is evident that the 'fruit' that is the logical endpoint of election is truly 'bad fruit' - which renders prayer, missions and evangelism irrelevant, at best. There is no good orthopraxy that accompanies fatalism/determinism that comes with the Calvinist view of election." This will actually be one of the easier claims to refute, as examples from church history to the contrary are voluminous. Chris Lyons runs a couple of blogs including Fishing The Abyss, and a vigilante watchblog called CRN.info, which is where I saw his recent comments against election and predestination. His remarks were made in the comments of a post entitled "The Fruit of Their Theology", which attempted to portray a connection between what that blog feels is bad behavior by two specific Calvinists and their beliefs in election. The post wants to demonstrate that an angry gospel is being preached for a select few elect while "everyone else is mocked as they walk into the flames of hell". Right away though, their story goes bad, as the two "Calvinists" that are cited are demonstrated to be either, not a Calvinist at all (in one case), and an actual cultist (in the other case) that just so happens to mix-in Calvinism with some really odd theology. At the end of the article, the conclusion is drawn that such theology is the reason for "hate speech" and poor conduct. Then later in the comments, Chris Lyons makes the claim that believing in election conflicts with prayer, missions, and evangelism. So is all of that true? Chris Lyon's first mistake is in equating predestination with "fatalism". He is not the only postmodernist who "poisons the well" of this topic for his audience, Erwin McManus does the same thing in this 12 minute audio clip from his emerging church, in which he declares biblical predestination to be fatalism. These men have not done their homework however; author and theologian Loraine Boettner thoroughly refutes this claim of fatalism in his classic book (which is free online). Update 12/27/07: Even Chris Lyons' own friend and blog contributor Brendt Waters - refutes this claim, saying: "Calvinism is not fatalistic. ..." (see thread comments) Regardless however, we can put this whole argument to rest by simply citing a few examples from church history that contradict Chris Lyons' claim. Here are a few links to Calvinists who thoroughly believed in election and predestination, and by their lives - they present a roadblock for Chris Lyons' theory that their theology "renders prayer, missions and evangelism irrelevant, at best": John Welch, the Scottish Calvinist who prayed for 8 hours a day. John Patton, the famous Calvinist missionary to the cannibals. Charles Spurgeon, the Prince of Preachers whose ministry was used of God to save thousands of souls. George Mueller, that 19th century Calvinist pastor who prayed for thousands of orphans under his direct care. Adoniram Judson, the first American missionary. Jonathan Edwards, a pastor who prayed for hours in the woods. David Brainerd, the Calvinist missionary to the American Indians whose missionary diary is still in print today. Charles Simeon: Another pastor who prayed several hours daily. George Whitefield: The Calvinist whose evangelism reached more than half of the people during one era of the early American colonies. Lorraine Boettner cites church history in addressing this topic as well: Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and their immediate helpers were all thorough-going "Calvinists," and the greatest spiritual revival of all time was brought about under their influence. Those in England who held this system of faith were so very strict regarding purity of doctrine, purity of worship, and purity of daily life, that by their very enemies, who thus were their best witnesses, they were called "Puritans." The Puritans in England, the Covenanters in Scotland, and the Huguenots in France, were men of the same religious faith and of like moral qualities. That the system of Calvin should have developed precisely the same kind of men in each of these different countries is a proof of its power in the formation of character. Concerning the Puritans in this country McFetridge says: "Amongst all the people in the American colonies, they (the Puritans, Calvinists of New England) stood morally without peers. They were the men and the women of conscience, of sterling convictions." [read more] What's interesting about the claim of Chris Lyons however, is how easily it can be turned around and swung in the other direction. I don't actually believe these statements, but you could just imagine somebody making these claims against those who DON'T believe in election and predestination: The Crusades of the middle ages were lead by those who DID NOT believe in election, and these crusaders killed thousands of people. The leaders of French Christendom did not believe in election and they killed thousands of French Calvinist Huguenots in the 17th century. The Mormons and TBN are large organizations that don't believe in predestination, and they are rife with biblical error. Now I could take those true statements and spin their non-election beliefs into supposed evidence that a lack of full-orbed biblical belief in these things is the cause of the corruption of these groups. That's not much different than what Chris Lyons has done. Those are some extreme examples, but what follows are some real, and legitimate ones. I have documented here on Old Truth numerous cases of poor orthopraxy (bad behavior) attributable, at least in part, to NOT believing in God's sovereign election. Four examples are Muscled Growth Promises, $48 Souls, 20 Souls Per Bible, and Seeker-Centering. I would have liked to communicate some of these things to Chris Lyons and friends, but there have been problems getting comments approved on their CRN blog. They had mentioned me in one of their blog articles "How Systematic Theology Kills People", but when I commented there with a question about it, my comment didn't show up for days, and my question was ignored. There have been multiple cases of comments not getting accepted there, including not getting posted at all. This is ironic from a group who has had much criticism for 'watchblogs' who restrict commenting. Go figure. More posts related to Chris Lyons: Heaven's Not Big Enough For You, Me, & Your Theology Chris Lyons warns Calvinists who take Election very seriously that they believe 'another Gospel' and are therefore hell-bound. Pachyderm Theology - Refuting Chris Lyon's claims against 'fatalism', systematic theology, and predestination vs science, at Triablogue. White Elephant Theology - Steve Hays from Triablogue steps in to make further observations on the response from Chris Lyons' crew. Half-baked Science Meets Half-Baked Relativism - Triablogue demonstrates how Chris Lyons' rejection of Systematic Theology has left him with self-refuting relativism and appeals to science. No Views Contradict - A Postmodernist Guide To Keeping God Out of a Box. A response to Chris Lyons, on Strange Baptist Fire. Postmodernism's Clash With Calvinism, Strange Baptist Fire. Systematic Theology Leads to Divisive Failure, Chris Lyons Go back to the main page for CRN.INFO and Chris Lyons Posted by: Jim B.   Link: http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.701   Be the first to post a comment about this article        Home  |   About  |  Videos   |  Calvinism